A friend of a friend had this to say about my "I am that mom" post.I find it slightly offensive to suggest that those of us who do not have the time or money to do such things are somehow worse parents than those who do.
Also, I think that children should get everything they *need*, but wants and needs are not the same thing. I think my kids wants are important, to an extent....but nobody gets *everything* they want. I work pretty hard to make sure they have everything they need....I'm not going to kill myself to give them everything they want. What I want is important, too.
To which my friend replied:
mmmm...read more of the blogs. there's waaaaay more to it. I dont personally think ronnie's post is insulting in the way you suggest. Its point is to TRY to do the most possible...
I also disagree the wants and needs aren't necessarily the same thing. I believe it's a matter of priorities: every want is a need to some degree. But I think you know that about me already. ;)
To which her friend replied:
I don't think it's necessary to try to do the MOST possible. I think society needs to learn to be content with ENOUGH. Our kids have never been without food or shelter or access to medicine, and neither have I. We're already more privileged... than much of the world's population. Why do Westerners need sooo much in order to be happy? And even though we have sooo much, so many of us are unhappy, anyway.
The blog post in question....obviously the woman who wrote it does not mind dropping everything to drive an unnecessary 500 miles. I would mind. I like simplicity and I like consolidating errands and trips as much as possible. If the same exact trip was coming up in two weeks, no way would I make the trip twice just to instantly gratify my kids. It's not because I don't care about what they want, but I care about what I want, too. If they get to take a trip, and I get to drive only once, then we all get what we want. The woman who wrote the blog was happy and able to indulge her kids, so she also got what she wanted.
I personally feel that we do our kids a disservice if we teach them that their wants are the only ones that matter. I remember you posting a couple of weeks ago about how strongly you feel about hypocrisy. I feel the same sort of disdain for self-serving behavior.
To which I replied:
"does not mind dropping everything to drive an unnecessary 500 miles"
Actually, it's that I see it completely differently. :-) What I'm doing is *picking up* everything important--my connection to my kids, the extremely fun times we have hanging out with our friends, an attitude that life is full of possibilities and solutions and YES. That makes the 500 miles not only necessary but cheap at twice the price!
"I personally feel that we do our kids a disservice if we teach them that their wants are the only ones that matter."
This is a common criticism of unschooling. All I can tell you is that, in our life and in our family, my wants count for a LOT. I am spoiled rotten. I know it's hard to imagine, but all four of us (mom, dad, two teenaged girls) get MOST of what we want (and I say that after coming off almost a year of unemployment - it's about an attitude of abundance rather than an unlimited supply of money). This makes for a happy family that I could not have imagined in our pre-unschooling days.
But of course our kids suffer disappointments. Life serves up plenty of those without my ever having to do the dishing.
Do you have a reply?
Updated 7/29: I had to add the amazing art Linda found for me. Thanks, Linda! Also, the conversation continues in the comments.
26 comments:
>>I find it slightly offensive to suggest that those of us who do not have the time or money to do such things are somehow worse parents than those who do.>>
I just reread your original post and you did not say or imply anything of the sort. If the mom who's pissed off attached negative feelings to your words, they were just that...HER feelings. You simply talked about why you do the things you do. She's the one who is suggesting that your parenting decisions are somehow inferior to hers.
And yes, I find her slightly offensive.
I read your original post and think that you sound like us. LOL! We do similar things, not just because the kids want to, but we like to use that excuse most of the time. LOL! It is an indulgent but so is chocolate! I didn't see anything wrong with your post. You were only talking about you and it was brief. Not everyone can do those things but if they were in a situation that allowed it would they do it? Probably!!
Z-mom - I think that's why I didn't get upset (and usually I'm pretty thin-skinned, as I suppose you are well aware). It's just so clear that her comments are more about her than they are about me.
Pace - Thanks!
But maybe I should clarify. 500 miles at 25 miles per gallon is 20 gallons at $3 per gallon is $60. And it was a weekend. So, we got a three-day weekend away from home for $60 plus some food we would have had to buy anyway. It really wasn't that extravagant!
Well, I think the whole point was to highlight the fact that this is unusual behavior. Most parents don't drive their kids 500 miles twice in as many weeks. There's no statement about who's right or who's wrong. Ronnie is acknowledging that she's THAT mom who does that for her reasons. Any offense is implied by the reader.
I think it's difficult in any situation for people to hear about another option. If I choose A that means I am actively rejecting B and that bothers people who choose B because they feel rejected, too. It's like that "It's 5:00 somewhere!" line. It's a power play in someone's head somewhere! (except it's not as smooth ;)
=I feel the same sort of disdain for self-serving behavior.=
The author of this comment, who obviously wanted to get in a little snide dig at the children of people she does not know, sounds pretty self-serving to me. Her comment is full of I, me, mine. I want, I need, my choices, my desires. She may say she has a disdain for self-serving behavior, but her other words make it clear that what she has a disdain for is people who are less selfish than she is and make her look bad by comparison. "Why can't you people stop being so nice? Other parents need to come down to my level so there's no pressure on me to do better." Living with that kind of attitude is exactly what makes kids come out 'self-serving'. Having kindness and joyful giving modeled for them every day does the opposite.
Oddly, I found the critique satisfying for a wholly separate reason. The idea of dropping everything to drive 500 miles for anyone or anything is simply appalling from a consumption perspective. Never mind who wanted it, the supportive and loving nature of the trip, or all the happy happy joy joy the Maier family got out of it. Laureen's endless posts and the news are giving me road rash level sensitivity for stories of conspicuous consumption like this. Now I'm going through offset angst for our trip south this summer. Ugh.
Sorry about that Ronnie... it struck me the first time and now this diatribe renews the basic shudder response I had to your original post. I absolutely KNOW and understand that wasn't where you were going with it. It -was- my visceral reaction to it, however.
From bottom up:
No worries, Toast. I think about the consumption aspect, too. But... In our little slice of reality, *this* fossil fuel consumption is seriously insignificant. It is the commuting I do to get to the work that pays for our lives that is *really* worth talking about. I typically commute 140 to 210 miles PER WEEK. I can't bear to total it up; my first approximation is painful enough.
However, that 140+ is a HUGE reduction from the 350 per week that I used to "have to" do, and the reduction is the result of reconfiguring that I pursued.
So, I suppose my point is, everything is relative. For some families, the $60 is extravagant. For some, the 500 miles is. For us, neither has any special impact.
And we're not buying new cars every year (10yo van, 21yo car), and we recycle like fiends, and and and.
Beyond the environmental balancing act, we're trying to strike a balance between whatever philosophies of consumption that Frank and I have (and our philosophies are not identical) and the type of say-yes life we want to have with our kids (who may have completely different philosophies).
Bonnie - "Having kindness and joyful giving modeled for them every day does the opposite."
It certainly can't hurt. :-)
Flo - "If I choose A that means I am actively rejecting B and that bothers people who choose B because they feel rejected, too."
I understand this, but I still find it kind of puzzling when people see rejection everywhere (even as many example leap to mind of times I felt rejected when maybe I wasn't really). Maybe it's a factor of too many years of rejection-based culture and rejection-based child-rearing.
One of the things I've noticed so often is that people take unconventional or "different" parenting personally. The way I choose to be with my child, for some reason, tends to threaten others. Not only that, some of those folks feel 100% comfortable expressing that discomfort to me - like once I know about their feelings, I should change to make them feel better. It reminds me of when my husband and I got together... he had been dating a good friend of mine for several years, she dumped him, he went traveling, and when he got back, we started hanging out and voila! She went nuts and was angry and when I asked her (so naive) what I could do to make things better, she said "not be with G." Um, yeah. As if.
"It's not because I don't care about what they want, but I care about what I want, too."
What she doesn't get is that it is totally possible that helping one's kids get what they want is what some parents want... that's what the parenting journey means to them because they are living along side their children rather than in opposition to them. It's a different way to view the parent/child relationship - and she's not able (or willing) to step into those shoes, even for a minute. So she twists it around to be a negative thing, missing the beauty in it.
I suspect that the "rejection" and "offense" and defensiveness is because, deep down, she's not 100% comfortable with her role as parent, for whatever reason... and a post like "that mom" gives her subconscious a little shake up and those feelings start to rise to the surface. And she doesn't like it.
Maybe we've cracked open a door.
In nearly every "I'm THAT Mom/Dad" post, I've read something that I'd "never" do. Yet, the fact is that I *would* do it if/when my kids wanted me to be that particular kind of Mom. It's the growth involved, the stretching of boundaries and all the predetermined-I'd-nevers that make us THAT kind of parent.
Taking the 500 miles idea. I never have driven my kids that far "just to see a friend" and they've never wanted me to, so I'm (not yet) THAT kind of mom. I see that changing soon as my children age. In fact, I've just had my older daughter ask me to drive her nearly that far just to see one friend. My immediate reaction was, "YES! Of course." Then we got down to the details and it's all working out--to everyone in my family's satisfaction and happiness. We're planning a whole weekend around it. That's what the whole thread is about to me--meeting their desires as they arise (not preplanning that someday we'll do something specific).
It's all a matter of listening to what our own individual children want from us, and giving them precisely that in the very best way we can. It plays out differently in all of us, because all of us are different.
To me, it seems very very important to do our very best, as parents, to give as much as we can. I want my children's lives to feel FULL! I want them to WANT to be here and enjoy living with their family.
I guarantee there are plenty of kids who DON'T feel full, who don't want to live with their parents, who don't enjoy much about their existence.
So, while I could do all kinds of things for my kids and make everything a compromise or make it so that every deed I do has strings attached, but I don't do those things.
I've experienced 4 runaway situations in the last year. NONE of those kids were mine running away from me. Only 1 of those kids has a really crappy parent. The other situations are pretty normal parents, who follow advice from Dr. Laura and others like her!
Those kind of folks are ALL about taking authority as parents and implementing the ideas that THEY think are good for their kids, because kids are these other than human beings designed to be controlled by the things the parents see and know are good and right.
Guess what? Some of those kids runaway. Some kids rebel. I don't know any family with kids in that environment that aren't at odds with each other in the parent/child dichotomy. It's ugly from my view point having seen another way that isn't like that at all!
Even subtle manipulation feels ugly to me, it's so hugely disrespectful, so I avoid that kind of dynamic. I have a 16 yr old that LIKES to be at home with her family, she LIKES to hang out and talk, and no matter how much a mom may say that is true of her daughter too, if she's practicing parenting that is authoritarian, it is not even remotely the same thing. I've seen both sides of that, having grown up with it and raising my children differently. There are still things that I do NOT discuss with my mother, even if I love her and have learned how to talk to her.
My friend's friend replied to my comment:
When I hear these sorts of anecdotes, I wonder at how people manage to be unemployed but still take trips across the country, put food on the table, and other such things. I wonder how the bills get paid while everyone plays.
I'm not overly... critical of unschooling....I consider my family to be unschoolers, but certain unschoolers have told me time and again that we aren't, because I don't embrace whole-life unschooling. It's kind of like how Protestants don't see Catholics as Christian.
It just grates on me when it's implied that my priorities are screwed up because I have to work. I still feel very connected to my kids, and we have fun times together.
My goal is not to get most of what I want, but to want less and be content with simplicity. Maybe my Buddhist upbringing has an influence here.
And my reply to that:
The how they/we do those things varies, of course. In our case, it's a combination of earning a good income (when I'm working), saving up for the dry spells, and having the willingness and desire to GO. Over the course of my girls' lifetimes (they are both teens now), that last has been behind a couple of extended roadtrips, six months living in Florida, four months dodging hurricanes on a battered sailboat, and countless smaller adventures.
When I talk about "wants," it seems like you hear "stuff." Really, I'm talking more about experiences. Embracing life to the fullest. Sometimes that includes buying stuff, but we budget carefully so we can do our trips. No new cars, lots of buying used (books, movies, clothes), and so on.
But the openness to stuff is in there, too. Aside from layoff times, the girls have always received a no-strings allowance that they can spend as they please. The two of them have different standards about value than I do. MJ is a consumer; she loves her stuff. I don't buy much besides books, so my philosophy is probably closest to yours. Chloe saves it all, not out of any desire for simplicity but because she loves having money. I believe each of us has an equal chance for happiness, success, comfort despite these differences in philosophy. I do not believe it is my place to impose my philosophy on them. In fact, I think it's my place to embrace their philosophies even/especially when it means hopping in the car for an impromptu roadtrip.
It's clear from your comments here that you read accusation into my post and perhaps the whole carnival. Really, the carnival is a response to all the criticism that *we* receive for living as we do, a reminder that we aren't alone in living this way, and a joyful reaffirmation that this is how we like it.
You're not asking for advice. I'm trying to resist giving any. :-) I'll just say that when I've gotten pissed off about something related to my parenting, when I've felt judged and accused, it's because there was something there for me to take a harder look at. Sometimes after this reexamination I didn't change a thing (except to feel calmer). Other times, it ended up being a door that, once stepped through, led me to even closer connections to my kids.
I know my sister commented on mine, in a rather defensive way. It might not sound that way to anyone else, but I know my sister and it's very defensive. I could go in and point by point let her know how I completely disagree with her assertion, but since I'd like to stay friends with her, I'm not touching it!
I also know how her "discipline" has done huge amounts of damage to her kids. I've seen it, even if she can't.
"I'm not overly... critical of unschooling....I consider my family to be unschoolers, but certain unschoolers have told me time and again that we aren't, because I don't embrace whole-life unschooling. It's kind of like how Protestants don't see Catholics as Christian."
I kind of get what she's saying here -- I understand her rebellion against there being a "right" or "correct" way to unschool, especially if she's heard before that she's deficient in her unschooling "methods"... like there is a rule book somewhere that only some folks have access to. But I do think some people romanticize unschooling and really want to call what they do unschooling and it's really not, for any number of reasons. I suspect, if she's hearing this time again, there is likely a reason.
But, truly, I think that this conversation is more about parenting styles than "unschooling" as a defined activity.
"It just grates on me when it's implied that my priorities are screwed up because I have to work. I still feel very connected to my kids, and we have fun times together."
It's interesting that she'd think that your initial "mom" post fits this particular category of finger-pointing. This is where I'd say it's definitely about her. I'm not sure I'd drive 500 miles for my kids to visit someone, but I won't know until I'm asked. But I do know that I will do everything I can to support his request. That's what it's really about.
I'll be interested to know how she responds to your "door" comment (which is lovely and gentle, btw).
Last two replies.
Hers:
I think you're assuming that I am hearing "stuff" because my parenting style differs from yours and I am probably less well-off than you are. Being poorer doesn't necessarily mean being obsessed with "stuff," although it's easy to take "stuff" for granted when you have the means with which to get it. Experiences are important to me, but they often still cost money. Every penny is pretty much spoken for in my house.
I don't think anything is being gained by this banter, but I will say that I wasn't offended by the blog post in itself or the whole carnival. It was really the "read, learn, be a better parent" comment that set me off, and those weren't your words. Of course most people do what they think is optimal for themselves and their families; I find it arrogant to presume that others are suffering by not sharing the same lifestyle.
I've spent enough time talking to unschoolers IRL and online to know the criticism that unschoolers receive. I also know that some of the most judgemental parents I've ever talked to have been unschoolers. Whatever the topic, most people find proselytizing unappealing.
Mine:
Ack! "Being poorer doesn't necessarily mean being obsessed with 'stuff...'" - I don't think and didn't say that you're obsessed! Reading back over the comments, I think it was the reference to simplicity that led me to think you meant stuff. If you include experience in simplicity, then we live very simply. We're just often on the move while we do it.
Oh - the "read, learn, be a better parent" phrasing she refers to was in my friend's intro to the link.
"read, learn, be a better parent"
How could anyone take offense to that advice? Really! That's good advice no matter what kind of parent you are! Perhaps the one who was offended doesn't do enough of that and feels it keenly as criticism. BUT that's more about her than about the advice itself, which seems to be the case all around actually.
AND the feeling of abundance has little to do with money. It's something that a LOT of people don't see or understand at all!
Unschooling is really seeing the world in abundance and offering all of that to our kids. Being open to driving 500 miles is just one way of giving abundance. If it's physically impossible, then it's physically impossible, but finding the possibilities in impossibilities can make the difference between a child who feels lack and a child who feels abundance, REGARDLESS of money.
-=-I personally feel that we do our kids a disservice if we teach them-=-
ME TOO!
(Yeah, that was out of context, in the chopped-off-at-the-knees way, but it's not about teaching children, it's about BEING WITH children. Being WITH, and BEING with, and anyone who reads this and doesn't think there's a difference should read here and not post anything around unschoolers who have thought about this much more than someone with dollar signs in her eyes and resentment in her heart.
SandraDodd.com/being
-=-Experiences are important to me, but they often still cost money.-=-
I added something yesterday to my page on abundance, something Jenny Cyphers wrote:
SandraDodd.com/abundance
Maybe a feeling of lack or of paucity, of time and money and positive regard, is behind the original objection.
-=-Guess what? Some of those kids run away. Some kids rebel.-=-
Some of those kids kill themselves directly or indirectly. Some develop bulemia, anorexia, cutting, drug or alcoholism bingeing. I thought of particular kids by name with each of those I wrote down. I know their parents. I see what they could have changed in simple little ways, to treat their children as people rather than as property, as future humans, as grubs.
I'm not apologizing for that statement. Some of those people are dead. One is in a photo I put up on my "I'm that mom" blog, but I didn't mention it. He was a sweet kid, but his mother was belitting and disdainful, negative and hateful. I knew her before either of us had children. She assured me several times my kids were going to be failures. She's got one left. Not a happy one. She no longer makes eye contact with people she used to really enjoy.
In the original writings, this is what struck me the biggest and loudest:
-=-I don't think it's necessary to try to do the MOST possible. I think society needs to learn to be content with ENOUGH. -=-
The effect in marriages, employee behavior, friendships and parenting that shows school's most abiding legacy is the idea that one should only do enough, and not any more, than one "has to." Employees feel cheated if they actually work. Spouses who aim for "50/50" end up divorced. Parents who say "What about me?" Will end up with kids who say "What ABOUT you?" and move away far and fast.
I can't drive far. I get sleepy. I wish I could. But today I gave Marty my debit card so he could drive 500 miles to surprise his brother (shhhh... he's not there yet). We've flown Kirby home because we missed him. We've flown Holly places because she could learn and grow from those experiences.
I'm not going to wait for everyone to vote on whether those things are okay or not. I'm not going to wait until all families can afford to do that. Many who could EASILY afford it are too antagonistic and hostile to consider giving anything to their children.
But I'm that mom who gives generously to her children. And if other moms feel threatened by that, I'm sure they can find a million other moms who are just as controlling and cold-hearted as they are.
-=-Experiences are important to me, but they often still cost money.-=-
I added something yesterday to my page on abundance, something Jenny Cyphers wrote:
SandraDodd.com/abundance
Maybe a feeling of lack or of paucity, of time and money and positive regard, is behind the original objection.
-=-Guess what? Some of those kids run away. Some kids rebel.-=-
Some of those kids kill themselves directly or indirectly. Some develop bulemia, anorexia, cutting, drug or alcoholism bingeing. I thought of particular kids by name with each of those I wrote down. I know their parents. I see what they could have changed in simple little ways, to treat their children as people rather than as property, as future humans, as grubs.
I'm not apologizing for that statement. Some of those people are dead. One is in a photo I put up on my "I'm that mom" blog, but I didn't mention it. He was a sweet kid, but his mother was belitting and disdainful, negative and hateful. I knew her before either of us had children. She assured me several times my kids were going to be failures. She's got one left. Not a happy one. She no longer makes eye contact with people she used to really enjoy. She's in that photo too, where the kids were playing Dead Pirates.
Sorry, I had written a little book. I couldn't post it all at once.
"Proselytizing" doesn't apply to people posting on their own blogs or their own facebook pages. It was yet another cheap attempt to belittle Ronnie. Not nice.
In the original writings, this is what struck me the biggest and loudest:
-=-I don't think it's necessary to try to do the MOST possible. I think society needs to learn to be content with ENOUGH. -=-
The effect in marriages, employee behavior, friendships and parenting that shows school's most abiding legacy is the idea that one should only do enough, and not any more, than one "has to." Employees feel cheated if they actually work. Spouses who aim for "50/50" end up divorced. Parents who say "What about me?" Will end up with kids who say "What ABOUT you?" and move away far and fast.
I can't drive far. I get sleepy. I wish I could. But today I gave Marty my debit card as backup funding so he could drive 500 miles to surprise his brother (shhhh... he's not there yet). We've flown Kirby home because we missed him. We've flown Holly places because she could learn and grow from those experiences.
I'm not going to wait for everyone to vote on whether those things are okay or not. I'm not going to wait until all families can afford to do that. Many who could EASILY afford it are too antagonistic and hostile to consider giving anything to their children.
But I'm that mom who gives generously to her children. And if other moms feel threatened by that, I'm sure they can find a million other moms who are just as controlling and cold-hearted as they are.
Loved reading this (and all the other "I'm that..." blog posts...). Thanks for sharing your world, Ronnie. You inspire me to be a better parent.
I run into similar problems... I don't even try to talk about unschooling, but just focusing on relationships with our children. I think the problem is that we come from such a different base set of assumptions that it just doesn't translate. Like, you, I would say I'm a very spoiled momma. Each member of our family tends to jump at the opportunity to indulge another. We are team mates, in a sense, and the more we are able to do to please each other, the more we want to do to please each other. It's an upward spiral, and even when times get tough and we're short on money or whatever, we work through it together and it ends up being fun for everyone anyway.
You know, I think the abundance part is all attitude and only a little bit about what you actually have. Because we've spent many years not having much money, or nice cars but we've always looked at our wants (all of us, not just my kids) as something we can figure out with some creativity. We often put things off, or plan for future because we don't have the money right now but the ongoing attitude is that we can all do and have the things we want because we are resourceful, intelligent beings who can find a way.
"Finding a way" is often about respect to the environment, buying used or re-using things, finding ways to do something cheaper or working hard to save for what we want. Getting and having what you want doesn't negate a strong work ethic or "simplicity". It can all work together in my experience.
But there's no guilt when we indulge either... ;)
This inspired me to blog - again - about lack :)
http://withthefamily5.blogspot.com/2010/07/pardon-me-your-lack-is-showing.html
"And don't even think about saying "That's easy for you to say because your life is different from mine and I don't have...." Everyone has their challenges. If you come to challenges from a place of lack it is likely you'll feel trapped and defeated. If you come to challenges from a place of "Yes!" the challenge becomes an opportunity for creative problem solving. It becomes a challenge like a sudoku puzzle. The more you work on the puzzles the easier it becomes for your mind to see the paths and patterns that lead to solutions. I am raising my children to be puzzle solvers, capable of getting their needs met and finding solutions to the challenges in life."
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